Macroevolution using modern animals and Noah's ark "kinds" - 1/2/13

Macroevolution

To show macroevolution you have to look at several different but similar species that link together back in time. Creationists misunderstand this because they want animals such as the "crocoduck" (see below)..but evolution will never produce this because crocodiles are not the ancestors of ducks...they share a common ancestor. If we want to show the macroevolution of crocodiles and ducks we must start with crocodiles and move backwards in time until its last common ancestor with all birds. You will see the macroevolution of crocodiles to simpler reptiles, which can then be traced back forward in time to the birds and to the duck. A chimpanzee didn't evolve into a human and a gecko didn't evolve into a horse. They share common ancestors.

Finding macroevolution with modern animals is similar to this but instead of looking back in time for the common ancestor, you look at the end products today that share a common ancestor and compare the shared characteristics that link them together. This is what we will be doing! We will be linking the big cats to animals such as civets, which are considered different "kinds" and even showing the similarities to other groups such as mongooses, dogs, and bears.

Remember, since we are using animals alive today they didn't evolve into each other. As the groups become less and less related, their shared characteristics also become less...and eventually they look completely different.

Every animal we look at shared a common ancestor and have evolved into different species since. The older the family, the earlier they broke from the evolutionary line, and the less they have in common with whatever animal you are looking at.

Macroevolution does not happen genetically as a cat cannot be born from a civet, but macroevolution can be shown in the shared characteristics in modern animals. In this blog we will be linking the cats, or Felidae all the way down the line to civets, or Viverridae and even further. 

Creationist "kind" classification

According to Answers in Genesis and Creationwiki(two creationism authories), if animals can interbreed they are the same created "kind".They state that even non-breeding can be the same "kind", admitting that there might be blurring lines. They also say that the scientific classification of Family is very similar to a "kind", but they believe there is some intermixing of these groups (whenever they feel like it, no structure involved) so what they consider a "kind" is very confusing.

Official "journals" from Answers in Genesis listing accepted mammalian ark kinds: http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v5/n1/mammalian-ark-kinds

Answers Research Journal 4 (2011): 195-201.

www.answersingenesis.org/articles/arj/v4/n1/Ark-kinds-Flood-baraminology-cognitum

Creation scientists believe that Noah fit all the animals in the Ark by bringing in original pairs of each of the "kinds". They can then mutate and speciate into all of the species today once off the ark (Yes, according to AiG they accept that animals can mutate and speciate from natural selection). This means that an original "cat kind" left the ark and became all of the species we know today...interbreeding or not. It is at the point above "kind" that they believe no transitional animals exist.

Fossils are not involved because...

 "It is impossible to identify in such specimens many of the important features that have historically defined mammals, as soft tissue is nearly always absent. Even the skeletal remains can be fragmentary, making their placement difficult and severely limiting our understanding of how they appeared in life." (AiG) 

Since they don't take fossils into account, I will avoid using them...but fossils are EXTREMELY important in understanding how families link together. The fossils are really just too difficult for them so they ignore them completely.

An Answersingensis.org quote I found amusing about the dinosaur "kinds":

“The concept of kind is important for understanding how Noah fit all the animals on the Ark. If kind is at the level of family/order, there would have been plenty of room on the Ark to take two of every kind and seven of some. For example, even though many different dinosaurs have been identified, creation scientists think there are only about 50 “kinds” of dinosaurs.” (AiG) 

I thought fossils were too fragmentary to be used...

Examples of species forming a "kind" from Answers in Genesis
Able to interbreed:
~Lion + Tiger = Same "cat kind"
~Horse + Donkey = Same "horse kind"
Unable to interbreed:
~Jaguar + Cheetah = Still same "cat kind"
~Wolf + Fox or Coyote + African wild dog = Still same "dog kind"

Important to note: Creationists may recognize the Family classification but they completely ignore the next step up, the Suborder. It is completely left out of their websites...and this category happens to be THE category that bridges all of the families together! Convenient... isn't it.

Here is an example of the classification of a leopard (skip to Order)
Order - Carnivora
Suborder - Feliformia (ignored by creationists) (Feliformia = cat-like, Caniformia=dog-like)
Family - Felidae  (considered "kind")

To keep things simple we will stick with 3 accepted "kinds", though a few others will be shown for comparison as they are all closely related. These 3 groups are considered original ancestors and can never be linked together.

Answers in Genesis ark "kinds" we will bridge together

Family - Felidae (fee-leh-day) - "Cat kind" - Everything they consider to be a cat. 

• Family - Viverridae (veh-vair-eh-day) - "Civet kind" -Everything they consider to be a civet.

• Family - Nandiniidae (nan-din-eh-day) - "Other civet kind" - The strange "kind" who is so different from the others that the species stands alone.

These 3 "kinds" can not only be linked together but can also then be linked to their extended carnivore families...

• Family - Herpestidae (herp-est-eh-day) - Mongoose

• Family - Hyaenidae (hi-aye-ee-neh-day) - Hyenas

• Family - Canidae (cane-eh-day) - Dogs, wolves, and foxes

• Family - Ursidae (urse-eh-day)- Bears

• and many more we dont have time for today

Below there are 10 modern animals and each is labeled with its common name but nothing else. This is because you are taking the role of creationist so you aren't supposed to know where each animal fits in each "kind" until the end...Keep in mind that even if something is called a "brown civet", it doesn't always mean that creationists consider it in the "civet kind"...it could be placed in the "cat kind" and even outside the original 3 "kinds". All extra information about classifications and "kinds" are at the end.

Most creationists can't even recognize where the "kinds" are that officials say are so obvious and definite. This is because there are no "kinds". There are gradual progressions. When the Family linking category of Suborder is removed, its easier for them to point and say there is nothing to link them together.

All you must do now is look at these animals and ask yourself is it a "cat kind", a "civet kind", an "other civet kind" (can't say real "kind" because it's the actual name of the animal so look for something a creationist would consider very different from civets), or even if it belongs to other groups including the "mongoose kind", "bear kind" or "dog/fox kind"...so watch out for random foxes, bears, dogs, or raccoons!

By the way: These animals are not always in order of relatedness but each animal IS related to another in the group. There are also many more animals in between these showing the gradual shared characteristics, but we will only look at 10 today.

So grab a piece of paper and pen and write down what "kind" you think each animal belongs to, the "cat kind", the "civet kind", or the "odd civet kind".  Let's see if you find the same unbreakable lines that creationists do!


Let's start!

1.) Lion

2.) Leopard

3.) Clouded leopard

4.) Margay

5.) Leopard Cat

6.) Spotted Linsang and Banded Linsang

7.) Rusty-Spotted Genet

8.) Indian Civet (Large and Small species)
(Remember this doesn't automatically place it in the "civet kind")

9.) Asian Palm Civet 
(Remember this doesn't automatically place it in the "civet kind")

10.) African Palm Civet 
(Remember this doesnt automatically place it in the "civet kind")

That it for the official line up! The next pictures are animals within closely related groups all belonging to the Carnivora. Can you tell what they are?




1.)

2.)

3.)

4.)

5.)

6.)

 

Answers - Classifications / Creationist "kinds"

1.) Lion

Lion Information
Family - Felidae

Suborder- Feliformia

Order - Carnivora

The lion can interbreed with the other big cats (jaguar, tiger, leopard) with varying degrees of success from infertile offspring to stillborn. The lion is part of the Felidae Family and is part of the cat-like Feliformia Suborder.

Answersingenesis.org and Creationwiki.org

Both sites consider the lion to be the "cat kind"(Family Felidae).

2.) Leopard
Leopard Information
Family - Felidae

Suborder- Feliformia

Order - Carnivora

The leopard can interbreed with the other big cats (jaguar, tiger, lion) with varying degrees of success from infertile offspring to stillborn. The leopard is part of the Felidae Family and is part of the cat-like Feliformia Suborder.

Answersingenesis.org and Creationwiki.org

Both sites consider the leopard to be the "cat kind"(Family Felidae).

3.) Clouded leopard

Clouded Leopard Information
Family - Felidae

Suborder- Feliformia

Order - Carnivora

Unable to interbreed with the 4 big cats but still very cat-like. The clouded leopard is part of the Felidae Family and is part of the cat-like Feliformia Suborder.

Answersingenesis.org and Creationwiki.org

Both sites consider the clouded leopard to be the "cat kind"(Family Felidae).

4.) Margay

Margay Information

Family - Felidae

Suborder- Feliformia

Order - Carnivora

Belongs with the group including cheetahs and ocelots. Group can interbreed with varying degrees of success from infertile to stillborn.  Group as a whole unable to reproduce with any of the big cats listed above.  The margay is part of the Felidae Family and is part of the cat-like Feliformia Suborder.

Answersingenesis.org and Creationwiki.org

Both sites consider the margay to be the "cat kind"(Family Felidae).

5.) Leopard cat
Leopard Cat Information
Family - Felidae

Suborder- Feliformia

Order - Carnivora
Belongs with the group including cheetahs and ocelots. Group can interbreed with varying degrees of success from infertile to stillborn.  Group as a whole unable to reproduce with any of the big cats listed above.  The margay is part of the Felidae Family and is part of the cat-like Feliformia Suborder.

Answersingenesis.org and Creationwiki.org
Both sites consider the leopard cat to be the "cat kind"(Family Felidae).

6.) Spotted and Banded linsang

Spotted Linsang Information

Family - Prionodontidae

Suborder - Feliformia

Order - Carnivora
The linsangs represent the closest group to the cat-like Felidae Family. The linsangs are very cat-like and are often mistaken to be cats. This is because they still belong to the Suborder Feliformia, meaning they are related to the cats, and have cat-like features instead of dog-like features.

Answersingenesis.org and Creationwiki.org

Not mentioned by Answers in Genesis or Creationwiki.  Not even listed on the list of families of Carnivora.  In short, completely ignored. Is it a coincidence that the closest living relative to cats linking to the civets is not mentioned...?

7.) Rusty-spotted genet

Rusty-spotted Genet Information
Family - Viverridae

Suborder - Feliformia

Order - Carnivora

Cat-like carnivore that is also placed in the Suborder Feliformia with the cats and linsangs.

Answersingenesis.org and Creationwiki.org

Not mentioned by Answers in Genesis or Creationwiki.

8.) Large and Small Indian civet
Large and Small Indian Civet Information

Family - Viverridae

Suborder - Feliformia

Order - Carnivora
Cat-like carnivore thats also placed in the Suborder Feliformia with the cats and linsangs, but belongs to the new Family Viverridae, which are cat-like civets.

Answersingenesis.org and Creationwiki.org

No page for the Indian civet on either website,  but if you assume they consider all members in the Viverridae Family to be the "civet kind", the large and small indian civets fit here.

9.) Asian palm civet
Asian Palm Civet Information

Family - Viverridae

Suborder - Feliformia

Order - Carnivora
Cat-like carnivore thats also placed in the Suborder Feliformia with the cats and linsangs, but belongs to the Family Viverridae, which are cat-like civets.

Answersingenesis.org and Creationwiki.org

No page for the asian palm civet on either website,  but if you assume they consider all members in the Viverridae Family to be the "civet kind", the asian palm civet fits here.

10.) African palm civet

African Palm Civet Information African Palm Civet Information

Family - Nandiniidae

Suborder - Feliformia

Order - Carnivora
Cat-like carnivore that is placed in the Suborder Feliformia with the cats and linsangs and civets, but this civet is such an old branch of the tree that it is separated into the new Family Nandiniidae. This is the last step on the cat-like ladder until you get to the last common ancestor to all cat-like Feliformia (cat, linsang, civet, hyena, mongoose) and the dog-like Caniformia (wolf, fox, bear, raccoon, weasel). In short, this animal's line is older than any cat-like animal alive today.

Answersingenesis.org and Creationwiki.org

Answers in Genesis considered the african palm civet to be separate from the "civet kind" and is now another separate "kind" called the "African palm civet kind". Link is broken on creationwiki.org. So even though the african palm civet is extremely similar to the civet and the genet, thus the cat, they completely ignore that fact and say its a brand new kind all together. 

Summarized relations: From Civet to Cat

1.) African palm civet ancestor split away from Feliformia line around 48-50 million years ago and maintains the primitive civet look
2.) Genet, Indian civet, and Asian palm civet ancestor split away around 38 million years ago and diverged into the civet group.
3.) Spotted linsang ancestor  broke off the line 36-37 million years ago, right before the main Felidae cats and is similar to the previous groups.
4.) The Margay and Leopard cat ancestor broke from the Feliformia line 11-12 million years ago and are part of the radiation of the Felidae Family.
5.) Clouded leopard ancestor broke off from the Feliformia line 7-10 million years ago and can only sometimes breed with other cats belonging to this split including the Cheetah and Ocelot.
6.) Lion, Leopard, Jaguar, and Tiger ancestor broke off recently around 2-4 million years ago and can still sometimes interbreed, though not usually successfully.

Everything is linked together from cats to civets and genets to the african palm civet. This is the blending of 3-4 "kinds" in one blog. The spaces between the "kinds" aren't that large...and according to science and the world we live in, they don't even exist at all.




Extra pictures
1.) Banded mongoose - Creationists ="Mongoose kind" / Science = Feliformia (cat-like carnivore)
2.) Yellow mongoose - Creationists ="Mongoose kind" / Science = Feliformia (cat-like carnivore)
3.) Fennec fox - Creationists ="Dog kind" / Science = Caniformia (dog-like carnivore)
4.) Raccoon dog - Creationists ="Dog kind" / Science = Caniformia (dog-like carnivore)
5.) Red panda - Creationists ="Red panda kind" / Science = Caniformia (dog-like carnivore)
6.) Brown hyena - Creationists ="Hyena kind"/ Science = Feliformia (cat-like carnivore)